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There are contactless thermometers, the Nose Frieda, co-sleeping. Trends in parenting gear and childrearing practices seem to evolve at faster rates than other sectors, a speed exemplified by a single product: strollers.
While we’ve been engineering ways to wheel children around for centuries, stroller manufacturers can’t seem to stop iterating on their models. Strollers have become a status identifier, a repository for parenting anxiety, and an emblem of consumerism run amok. As doctors and experts gather new research and best practices in childcare, strollers exemplify how quickly it’s all changing.
Strap in to episode 5 and get the latest about this new movement in industrial design.
Featuring
Rocio Fabbro is a staff writer at Quartz and the host of Season 8 of the Quartz Obsession podcast. She’s obsessed with etymology, matcha, and late ’90s-early ’00s romcoms.
Jamie Grayson is a dual-certified CPST and internationally-recognized baby gear expert with 20 years experience in the industry.
Jen LaBracio is Babylist’s Senior Gear Editor, a role that perfectly combines her love of all things baby gear with her love of (obsessive) research.
Show notes
Jen LaBracio - Senior Gear Editor, Babylist
A $3,300 self-driving stroller is at this year’s CES. Are parents ready?
Where it all began: celebrating 20 years of Bugaboo
Kourtney Kardashian Highlights Baby Rocky’s Stylish Stroller — Which Was Designed by Jeremy Scott
Transcript
Rocio: Let’s start with a little game of “What Am I?” I’m a $3,300 marvel of modern parenting powered by artificial intelligence to make strolling a breeze. But if that’s too pricey, you can rent my self-driving cousin at Disney World for just $500 a day. Can you guess what I am? Ponder that for a moment while I introduce the guests who will take us through today’s obsession.
Joining me today are two brilliant minds in the baby gear world. First, we have Jamie Grayson, aka The Baby Guy, a certified child passenger safety technician and internationally recognized baby gear expert. Welcome, Jamie.
Jamie: Hello, how’s it going?
Rocio: Good, good. Happy to have you here. And we also have Jen LaBracio, senior gear editor at BabyList, who spends her days testing and reviewing the latest and greatest in baby gear. Great to have you here, Jen.
Jen: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Rocio: Okay, the moment of truth. I am the Ella Smart Stroller by Glüxkind Technologies. Well, actually, I’m Rocio Fabbro, and I’m your host of Season 8 of The Quartz Obsession, where we’re taking a closer look at the technologies and ideas that define our lives.
Today we’re exploring the riveting world of strollers. Now I have to ask, had either of you heard of this AI-powered stroller before?
Jamie: I have. I’ve not seen it in person. I’ve seen a similar product in person, but I, I’m very aware that it exists.
Jen: Yes, I have heard of it as well, but I also have not seen it in person. I’d be very curious to see it in person and to give it a test drive, or shall I say to let it drive itself. But no, I have not had my hands on it yet.
Rocio: Let’s take our listeners back to a time before AI and self-driving strollers. How long have strollers been around and how have they evolved over time?
Jamie: The first, as far as I know, the first stroller company that ever made like a proper pram is Silver Cross. And they, I’ve been to their headquarters in the UK, and they have like one of their old like first refurbished strollers and it’s really, really cool to see. And I believe they started in like 1877.
Jen: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think mid- to late-1800s, and we have to credit the Brits, like we do with many things. And it was more of, I mean, I’ve seen several early-ish models, but I think the one that people might recognize the most would be like a pram style with like the very large metal wheels and like the bassinet style, you know, seat or whatever you would call it for the baby.
Jamie: They’re enormous.
Rocio: Yeah, I was gonna ask, how do those compare to now what we see on the sidewalks today?
Jamie: I mean, a lot of strollers now have, like, bassinet attachments, so, like, the DNA is kind of there, but very few people get, like, the giant prams in North America just because they’re not that practical, because you can’t really fold them down.
They’re just, like, a, they’re a third or fourth car for a lot of people. But, yeah, the higher end strollers with bassinets and, like, suspension, the DNA is.
Jen: I would agree with that. Same thing. I mean, they’ve changed in many, many ways. I think now, like, suspension, people are very into suspension, and that wasn’t something that you even thought about.
I actually had to do a voiceover for a TikTok we did for BabyList, and it was like, look at this old baby gear, and sort of, like, comment on what you think about it, and one of them was this, like, metal, sort of, it almost looked like one of those carts that you push if you live in the city to, like, carry your groceries.
But it had a baby just in it. And very far cry from what you see now. Much more tech forward now, much more focused on things like suspension, fold, comfort, breathability, fabric, all that stuff.
Rocio: Totally. And so, you said this is a far cry from what we see today, from where it started. But when and why did strollers become such an essential item for parents to have on command?
Jen: Curious what Jamie would say about this. That’s answer. I feel like Bugaboo/Uppababy is when they maybe started to take the turn, which would be 15 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe? I kind of equate it to jeans, which is ridiculous, but 20 years ago, no one would pay $200 for a pair of jeans. And nobody would go anywhere other than like Levi’s or The Gap or, or anywhere, and you just bought jeans and that was it.
Now there are, you know, a multitude of denim companies and it’s a thing and you pay $300 for. I mean, not that you can obviously buy them for much cheaper, but it is a much bigger category. And I kind of, obviously the stroller is such a different item, but to me, it kind of follows that same trajectory of this is now a category that has just exploded in the parenting to be world.
I don’t know, Jamie, what do you think? What’s your take on it?
Jamie: I will be 100% in agreement — it’s Bugaboo’s fault. But Bugaboo is how I got into this business when they first came to America. And that was actually back in 2002, 2003. And the original president of Bugaboo, Carrie, her husband ran a PR firm called 72andSunny.
And so she was in Amsterdam and saw this stroller on the street and was like, I need to bring this to America. So she brought it to America, got it on Sex and the City, and then it just blew up. And so that’s when I was hired at Buy Buy Baby, because the need for people to understand how Bugaboo worked was so high that they hired actors, so it was me and a couple other people telling people how the frog folded.
And the Bugaboo company, I think what a lot of people don’t understand is like at its core, the original product was a bike trailer that was designed for an engineering class at their college. And they took this idea of this bike trailer and turned it into a stroller.
And I’ve actually been to their headquarters in Amsterdam and I’ve seen like, all of their strollers over the genesis and you know different versions of like gecko and chameleon and the buffalo and like all of that and it’s wild but it’s all Bugaboo’s fault they created what I have always referred to as like, the stroller renaissance, because nobody paid that much for strollers at that point. And when the Frog first came out, I want to say it was like $ 729 or maybe it was $649 or $729, this was too long ago.But in New York your stroller is your car and it’s how you get around and you pay more money when you’re pushing something all day, because you want it to function better.
And it was also very much a status symbol. It was a huge status symbol. And then that came out at the right time. At a lower price point with a product that was more approachable for consumers.
Rocio: You both touched on a really important point and especially this point about them becoming a status symbol, because they’re so much more now than just a way to travel with babies and go to the grocery store with a baby.
Recently, designer Jeremy Scott, who was formerly the creative director of Moschino, collaborated with Cybex to create the aqua blue stroller. It’s more than $3,000 and was used by Kourtney Kardashian. It’s this whole status symbol and this sort of “loud luxury” in a way. And so why do you think this has happened and how has this evolved, especially in recent years with social media?
Jamie: With Jeremy, it’s different because I’ve actually been at the two release parties for his first and second versions.
The first one was fast food and it had like pizza and like. Hot dogs all over it. And I loved it. A lot of people didn’t, I thought it was cute. Some people were like, this is going to tell our children to eat junk food. But the second one was the black print, the black with the angel wings and things all over it.
You know, and that was the one that people were like, “Oh, this really sticks out.” I think with Jeremy in particular, his style is so like, let’s just say aggressive, let’s say aggressive. Like he designed for Katy Perry. So, if you’re into that visual and what he does, I think some people will be drawn to that.
But I don’t think, and I love Cybex very, very, very much, I don’t think that the designer influenced stuff with Cybex is, like, for the regular consumer.
Rocio: Yeah, it’s more for the Kourtney Kardashians of the world, in a way.
Jen: I think the city aspect, too, like what Jamie was saying earlier about becoming a status symbol.
Like, when you are parenting in a city, you walk everywhere. You do not drive, for the most part. Your stroller, I always say, it’s like your, your donkey, it’s your mule, it carries your groceries, it carries your, you know, change of clothes, it carries your kid’s toys to go to the park. Like, it is on display all the time, and it also has to function, because you are using it multiple times a day for multiple miles. So that, I think, changed things too. I think all of a sudden people were like, “Oh, people are seeing me walking down the street.” It’s kind of like a purse.
Jamie: Yeah, your mattress is not a status symbol. Nobody sees your crib mattress on the sidewalk, you know, with your stroller.
Jen: And then that, I think once that started happening, It sort of then trickled out into the whole country and just sort of became a thing.
Rocio: You both kind of touched on this, but can you discuss some of the most popular or innovative stroller brands and models that we’ve seen in recent years?
Jen: So we actually do a survey at BabyList every year.
It’s called our Best Baby Product Survey, and we send it out to parents to be as well as new parents. We kind of ask them, “What are your favorite baby products and why?” Strollers is obviously a big one. The two most popular that we get back are Uppababy and that’s from last year’s survey. We’re actually doing a new one in August, so it’s a yearly thing.
But those are the two that we hear about probably the most. If you’re going to dig into like niche category, Bumbleride, which I know Jamie loves, I love as well. We do hear a lot about that from the more eco-conscious folks. If you’re looking for like a hybrid, we hear a lot of love for Doona, which is a car seat/stroller combo. Jogging strollers, I would say Bob and Thule are what we hear the most about and then there is a huge portion of people who are buying the Gracos and buying the Britaxes, and buying the Chiccos. Like those are not to be diminished by any means because that is a big chunk but for Uppababy is what we hear the most about in the last year or two.
Jamie: They are like a marketing monster, you know?
Jen: Whenever I go to a new city, I’m always like what, what is everyone pushing? What am I looking at? And I think it depends where, but in most places you’ll see Uppababy. You’ll see Bugaboo still. I feel like Bugaboo has been a little bit taken over by Uppababy depending on where you are.
But you still see a good amount of Bugaboo’s. And then in the suburbs, it’s different. In the suburbs, I see a lot of baby jogger. I see more Graco and Britax and Chicco. I see a lot of Doonas on a daily basis, a lot of Doonas going in and out of the car.
Jamie: Doona has taken a huge chunk of, like, the infant market, because it’s like a, I would say, similar to, like, a snap and go.
And, like, I think people have forgotten snap and go’s exist. Like, you know, it’s always, like, such a good thing when you don’t know what you need for a stroller. It’s like, get a snap and go system, figure out your lifestyle, your daily path, like, what you’re doing, then get a stroller.
Rocio: So you mentioned a lot of different brands and how they’re different in different places, they have different popularity, can you talk a little bit more about what sets the different strollers apart from each other, what sort of features some of those have that appeal to certain audiences versus others?
Jamie: Well, I think the strollers, you know, if we’re going to look at the Bugaboo and the Uppababies of the world, those are really good city strollers. And it doesn’t mean they won’t work and be good for suburban environments, but like I said earlier, like in New York, you’re not in a car, like that’s your all day, everyday. You push it, push it, push it, push it, push it.
You have to have good wheels. You have to have good suspension. And you have to be able to fold it well. Because if you don’t have a place to park it in your entryway or in your apartment. You live in a small apartment in New York, you have to fold it and get it out of the way. So your needs in a city stroller versus needs in suburban where you may just be in and out of your car and like go into the mall or like, you know, HomeGoods to hang out all day — that requires a different, not as like hardcore stroller, if that makes sense? And so a lot of people in the suburbs will get like a different kind of like a Chicco Bravo travel system or something, and then they’ll get like a Bob or a Thule because they also go to the parks and they want like something a little bit more durable. But they don’t require like Bugaboo level.
Jen: Which is so funny because we get asked all the time, I get asked all the time, like, “What is the best stroller? What stroller do I need?” The city folks who don’t live in the city assume that the city folks want the collapsible, you know. “Oh if I have and and obviously if you’re living in like a walk off or you know, oh, you’re gonna be in a crowded space you need a smaller stroller.”
But I find it to be actually the opposite, like city life, like you said, requires the larger — you need the huge storage basket. You need it to be your vehicle. Whereas the suburbs you have a lot more flexibility. I personally don’t want to be lugging an Uppababy in and out of my trunk (I’m in the suburbs now) like five times a day. That is not appealing to me. That being said I have a larger stroller that I keep in my garage versus what I keep in my car. So it is very dependent on needs and that’s something I think a lot of new parents don’t think to think about beforehand. And we always encourage, like, you have to, and we can talk about this later, but you have to think through your lifestyle and your needs and like, what’s good for me isn’t always good for someone else.
Rocio: And so on this same topic, how has the stroller industry responded to changing consumer demands and expectations around their products?
Jamie: I think one of, one of the things that’s been very interesting with stroller evolution in the past few years is this trend of single to double. In terms of like, you know, the Vista and adding a rumble seat, the Vista and the rumble seat, when it first came out, that was like a game changer.
And people are like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” But like the weight limits only 35 pounds and there is no shade and it only does this. So Uppababy has made changes in that seat over the years, thankfully. But a lot of other companies have come out with these attachable seats now, either as a toddler seat or as a stand on board or ride on board situation.
And what has been interesting is seeing the companies that are able to do like the initial seat and then the add on seat will have a lower weight limit or the same weight limit. And it’s all about like engineering and weight distribution and whatever. Which is that I’m not smart enough to deal with that, but I don’t design these things, but I think the convertible single to double to even triple market has been really interesting because as a consumer, if you are paying a thousand dollars for a stroller, you want it to last, you want it to grow with your family so that it’s adaptable.
So, to me, that’s been one of the more interesting things. And then you have a company like Austlen, for example. And I love that Entourage stroller more than anything. I’ve been a diehard since it first launched and then it disappeared and now it’s back. And that’s one of the coolest strollers I have ever seen in my life. And it’s like a swiss army knife. It does. It’ll hold everything. It’ll hold your suitcases when you go to the airport. I’ve done it and it’s really, really cool. So I think the growth of holding kids and holding cargo, if that makes sense, and that’s been one of the best evolutions in the stroller space.
Jen: I think also travel systems.
We are seeing parents tell us that they want the ease of a travel system. So a travel system is a stroller and a car seat that work together, an infant car seat. You can have a travel system from the same brand. You can also make your own travel system, but you have to use adapters. And not all strollers go with different, if you’re mixing brands, not all go with each other.
It’s been interesting. I’d say over the past two years especially, you used to see more of the travel systems coming from like the Gracos of the world. They were pre-set. You could, you know, run into Target, buy one, be done. Now, I’m seeing a lot of higher end brands. Nuna is really pushing the travel system.
They are mixing and matching. They have a hugely popular car seat, infant Pipa, which they are pairing with all of their strollers. And now could you do that with, you know, you can pair it with anything, but they’re just selling it together and it makes sense. And I think for a lot of parents, they’re not wanting to kind of think through like, “Oh, I don’t want to bother mixing and matching.”
I just, you know, I like this stroller. I’ll just get it with the car seat or I like this car seat, I’ll just get the stroller that goes with it. You didn’t see as a lot of those high end brands doing that, i’d say even two or three years ago. Right? I mean, I think that’s something.
Jamie: It’s only been in the last couple years that they’ve been doing it, even like to bring Bumbleride back up.
Like, they don’t make a car seat. But because they’re eco-forward, they’ve partnered with Clek, and like, you can buy a travel system now with a BumbleRite Indie, and like, call it a day, because their values are in alignment. So, yeah, the better travel systems, I think, are great.
Jen: I would say also just options, too.
People want, they want features, they want options, they want the suspension, they want the big basket, they want a fully reclining seat, they want the modular seat that’s turning forward and backwards, they want the canopy to be able to come all the way down. Thanks, everyone. Those are things you just didn’t get in, like, unless you were spending a lot of money, you weren’t seeing them.
Now you’re seeing them in pretty much across the board and a lot of different brands, even lower priced strollers. You can get a lot of those features. That you only used to be able to get in, say, a Bugaboo or an Uppababy or a Nuna.
Rocio: Could it get overwhelming for parents to have so many options?
Jamie: Oh, yes.
Jen: It’s overwhelming for us and we do this, I’m overwhelmed and I do this for a living. Yes, I think so.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, when I worked at Buy Buy, I was at Buy Buy Baby for four-and-a-half years and people would come into that store and it was the biggest baby store in the country.
And it was the busiest baby store in the world. Like it was insane, the volume that we dealt with there. But I would see people come down the stairs of the store and see the wall of like McLaren’s and car seats and everything, and just break down and cry because it’s so much, and like your hormones are already going crazy.
And then you there at that point, also like research is a little bit different now, but there are so many options and you don’t know what to look for. And especially now, unfortunately, like, you know, BabyList has this showroom out in California and like, please replicate that here in Denver. I will run it for you.
But there is the retail space is so scary right now for baby. Because all these specialty retailers, a lot of them are closing. And as a consumer, the Buy Buy Baby is gone. The Babies “R” Us is basically gone, even though they’re starting to reopen and whatever, it is not as everywhere as it was. And so you look at Target, which Target is in such a great spot to be able to be this great resource.
But you can’t go in there and pull strollers off the shelves. They’re zip-tied down. And so where do consumers go to get their hands on a stroller and a car seat? I fully believe every other product for the most part you can just buy online and figure out like kind of your aesthetics and what you like, but getting a stroller in your hands and figuring out how it feels.
It’s something you’re going to touch every day all day .You have to get comfortable with it and you have to know your car seat. And I hate that consumers don’t have access to that.
Jen: Yeah, I would agree. So we have a huge selection of product guides that I write a lot of them and we try to fill that gap between the research and the like real life of I need someone next to me saying, “How do I go about even thinking about this?”
Like you said there are — you walk into a store, there’s 50 options in front of you. You do a search for like, best stroller, if you’re narrowing it down by price I mean, there are so many options. We always say, I always say, and I kind of alluded to this before, that you really have to think through your lifestyle.
You have to think about how you’re using it, where you’re using it. Are you in a city? Are you in a walk up building? Are you in an elevator building? Are you in a suburb? Do you drive a car? How many times a day do you drive a car? Do you have another child that you have to take and drop off? And all of those things It’s not hard, it just takes a little time.
You have to really think them through, and once you start answering those questions, the options start to narrow. And then you can maybe be left with three or four or five that you want to go seek out and actually push and find. Because, like I said earlier as well, what works for me isn’t going to necessarily work for somebody else, and that’s okay, right?
Like, I can personally say, and this is also why I dislike the question, “What is the best whatever?”
Jamie: Correct, there’s no such thing.
Jen: Yeah, and in some categories, right, like, I can give you a best overall for a lot of things, but I will always caveat it with, but, like, if you’re this, don’t do this, or if you’re this, don’t do that.
Which is why in our guides, we like to give options, right? It’s not my needs are going to be different than someone else’s needs and just because my best friend loved her Uppababy stroller. And maybe I don’t need the UPPAbaby stroller. Maybe I don’t want the Uppababy. Maybe I don’t want to pay for the Uppababy stroller. Like, you don’t have to be pressured into something just because somebody else has it. So I would say the most important thing is like taking a look at your lifestyle and your needs and then making your decision from there.
Rocio: Yeah, it’s not a one-size-fits-all type of thing. Jen, anything that you would like to see within the stroller industry, any improvements?
Jen: No, I think, I do find it interesting, I was at the ABC Kids show a couple months ago, which is like a big expo of baby gear, and it still blows my mind, like, the amount of features, like, I, like I said. I do this all day, every day, and I am still shocked.
What is left to do? Like, what, and, and there are still things left to do, like the new, I saw this in a few strollers, I saw this in the new Uppababy Vista D3, and I think I saw it in, probably in the Bugaboo Kangaroo, but now they have in-seat suspension, so now we’re not only talking about wheel suspension and suspension on your stroller’s frame, but now my child is not going to bounce because there’s suspension under the seat.
Jamie: Veer has it in the Switchback, too.
Jen: Yes. I’m just like consistently shocked at how many innovations we can come up with.
Jamie: You know what? That, the Veer, that, in terms of innovation, the Switchback, I think that is innovative. That is an innovative product. And, for those of you listening who don’t know what the Switchback is, Veer is a stroller wagon, it’s the Cruiser, it’s wonderful, but they came out with this system that is a seat. And the seat can dock into a four wheel stroller, a three wheel stroller, a bike seat, or a seat for the ground. And it’s really, really cool. Or it turns into a booster seat for like a restaurant. And it’s, to me, that is wildly innovative. And now they have the coolers. And the coolers can snap into the stroller.
Jen: Oh, I thought of one more. The Grand Prix from Baby Jogger. It’s a trail. Did you see that? It, you probably saw it at ABC too. It’s a jogging stroller that then converts into a bike trailer, which is definitely only for a certain type of parent, right? Like not everybody needs a jogging stroller that turns into a bike trailer.
But what I thought was interesting about it is when I was talking to the person at Baby Jogger, she was saying like a lot of people, a lot of parents know that they want to do something with their baby once they come. Something active, right? Like I want to either run or bike, or I want to do something.
I’m not quite sure what it is. This allows you to buy the stroller and then you can convert it into a trailer. So down the road, if you do end up saying like, “I’m the type of person who really likes getting out running and getting outside with my baby.” I now have that optionality to turn this into a trailer, you don’t have to buy a separate kit. It’s expensive. It’s heavy. Like there’s definitely, like, there’s, nothing’s perfect yet. But this idea that like, I’m not sure what i’m gonna want but maybe if I’m going to spend all this money, at least I have the option to then do other things with it. I thought that was really interesting, and that’s similar to like other, where you’re opening up, like, yes, you’re spending a lot, but you’re getting a lot from it.
And I think that’s something we hear from parents too, like, if I’m going to spend all this money, I want it to be a multi use product. And you’re seeing that more and more, which I like.
Jamie: I would also add the rise of the stroller wagons to that, because the stroller wagons over the past few years, They, they have saturated the market for a lot of reasons, which would be a whole other podcast to be honest, but I do think there’s some really cool stuff coming in the stroller wagon category that’s very interesting and a lot of it legally I cannot discuss, so.
Rocio: Okay, well, we know that there is a lot for parents and future parents to look forward to in this space. And what is the number one piece of advice each of you would give to new parents who are looking to purchase their first stroller?
Jamie: Don’t fall into the, “I’m gonna get it because my friends do” trap. I think that is the hardest thing.
And thankfully there are resources like BabyList and like, I think I spend all day on social media right now when I’m not on the road with like speaking events, but answering questions for people. But with strollers you really just have to do some research and figure it out. And you will never just have one stroller.
Jen: Yeah, I was actually going to say exactly the same thing. So back to what I said before, know your lifestyle, know the way you’re going to use it. Don’t be influenced by what you see everyone else using to a point, right? I mean, it’s great to ask. Other parents are a great resource. Never underestimate like people who are in the trenches and who are dealing with it can tell you a lot more than like watching a video or reading a blurb from a brand.
But think through your lifestyle and your needs, because at the end of the day you’re the one who’s going to be using it and you need to put in a little work up front to make sure you’re making the right choice. That’s what I would say. And then yeah, I hate to say like you’re gonna need more than one stroller but most families you can start with one.
I also. I like to tell people who are registering, you don’t need them all up front and you don’t need to put three of them on your registry because that’s really overwhelming. And I get that. Start with one, start with the one you’re going to use every day. As you get more comfortable, as your baby gets a little older, you can then go into, “Do I need a travel stroller? How often do I travel? Should I get a, you know, super fancy one or can I get by with a 100 travel stroller?” Which, there are plenty of those options. “Do I jog? Do I walk on a, you know, off the beaten path kind of trail on a daily basis?” Maybe you want a jogger. You probably will need more than one. But don’t get overwhelmed with it in the beginning.
Rocio: Great. Thank you both so much for joining us. This was a really great talk. I know I learned a lot. I’m sure our listeners learned a lot about strollers —more than they could have even imagined. Jen LaBracio is senior gear editor at BabyList. Jamie Grayson is The Baby Guy. This episode was produced by Podcast FastTrack with additional support from Jason Rossum, Amy Perry, Liliana Zapata, Juan Palacios and Lorena Caro.
Our theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Suguira. If you like what you heard, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you’re listening. Tell your friends about us. Know someone who’s considering the Ella Smart stroller? Share this episode with them.
Then head to qz.com/Obsession to sign up for Quartz’s weekly obsession email and browse hundreds of interesting backstories. I’m Rocio Fabbro. Thanks for listening.
Credits
The Quartz Obsession is produced by Podcast Fast Track, with additional support from Jason Russum, Amy Perry, Liliana Zapata, Juan Palacios, and Lorena Caro. Our theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Suguira. This episode was recorded at G/O Media headquarters in New York.